Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless are thieves!!

Matter forwarded to independent locations customer care manager for review. The retail stores that carry our products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#913037 Review #913037 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Cons
  • Entire experience and products
  • Any part of this
  • High pressure sales people
Reason of review
fraudulent charges
Loss
$250000
Preferred solution
Full refund

I was had by this crooked company of gypsies . They lured me in with false promises and took my credit card to the tune of $250,000 in one month!!!!

I am in the process of trying to recover from fraudulent actions. A woman from San Diego made believe that she was my friend by sending a limo to my house to pick me up after I had purchased 28,000 worth of this diamond infused product.

when I didn't come to her, she came to me to take my money. I am so embarrassed she took everything and maxed out my American Express without my authorization.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - I escaped with my wallet!

Thank you for your interest on our brand. We are happy to send a sample for your to try. Our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577 or via email at info@ForeverFlawless.com

ID
#911682 Review #911682 is a subjective opinion of poster.

I had the same experience. The saleslady was very nice but pushy.

I almost fell for it, but have a sister-in-law who is a dermatology rep so I wanted to check with her first before I put out that sort of money. The product seemed to tighten my skin, so I was tempted. She kept on changing the price and telling me that she wasn't on commission and just wanted to help me because she cared about me and my skin. It was really hard to get away-she kept countering every argument that I made.

I wanted to check a site like this first also.Thank you for the helpful information.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Review in Cosmetics and Toiletries category from North Las Vegas, Nevada

Please contact that private location as return policies vary by ownership team. They are always happy to assist. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#911077 Review #911077 is a subjective opinion of poster.

OMG!!! Thanks so much for this review.

I am now in Las Vegas and also went to the hotel and a female representative gave me a sample and 'almost' forced me inside claiming to help me with my dark circles. I went in with my husband in tow and another girl proceeded to put a peptide cream under my eyes. To be fair, I did see some immediate results but when I asked how much, I was told $600. That was not happening but she said that there was a sale going on for 2 more hours and the product is now half price.

Still reluctant, she threw in the peel and went over to my husband relaxing on their sofa reading. He would never say no (except when they told him they had products for him). At this point they asked where we were staying and amazing as this sounds, they were able to take another $50 off because of our hotel (not the Cosmo by the way). Now we're at $250 and to my defence, I did see immediate results under my eyes.

The sales girl was very very nice and now that I look back, might have felt a little guilty since we were also talking about some personal stuff (don't want to elaborate in fear she might be identified and get her in trouble). I believe that's why at the register while I had already committed to the purchase, she threw in a toner too. I paid for the 3 products, $250 + tax =$270. We didn't want to hold the items all day since we were going all the way to the LINQ and beyond and asked if they can hold them there for later pickup the next day.

Of course they agreed and also of course I felt guilty for hours spending so much on stuff I never use on my face normally.

The next day, today, I'm reading your review and now will go see if I can cancel transaction since products never left the store.

Thanks again for your review and hope mine helps others!

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Review in Cosmetics and Toiletries category from Los Angeles, California

Sorry to hear about your experience with that independent location. We have shared your information with the owenrship of that privately owned shop. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#910255 Review #910255 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Poor customer service

I let the girl at the store in Vegas apply. To my surprise she only did one eye!

She said come back in 4 hours to get the other. It was awful! It crusted on my eye so badly... Felt like glue...

I could not get to the restroom quick enough to wash it off! Then there I was at the casino with one eye normal and the other looked like I had been punched.

Thanks a lot for the experience that reminds me to always walk away from someone who approaches you and promises the moon!!

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Sales Representative Review from Westminster, Maryland

Your visit was to an Independent Store location that simply carries our brand of product. Ownership team has been updated about the experience at their store location - The retail stores that carry our products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#909661 Review #909661 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Poor customer service

Was harassed and by a very pushy sales man who would not stop begging me to buy this product. I was not interested and he would not give up and tricked me by getting my info and putting on a purchase I did not want .

It was supposed to be a free try out. It was a total scam .i am sick to my stomach about how this sales man would not even let me leave because he would not stop pushing this no good product.he said if you leave without buying I will never see you again.total fraud.

1 comment
Anonymous
#1205847

These are illegal Israelis selling this ***. They come here after military service.

These kiosks and Oceane Spa stores are in Malls all over the country. Mall owners do NOTHING to evict them. If a salesman touches you in any way, scream and call mall security immediately. Surprised no TV station has done an expose about them.

All the positive reviews are written employees. Hint: Look at names.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

FOREVER FLAWLESS IS A SCAM

Charge error resolved by the owenrship team that of the independnet location. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#907555 Review #907555 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Cons
  • Price or high pressure sales
Reason of review
IT'S A JOKE, JUST LIKE THIS
Preferred solution
Full refund

This company once you cancel the product keeps shipping it and tells you you are out of the return policy area. After 30 minutes they are willing to return 30%, then 50% and keep you on hold for long times and come back saying you were told to call back to cancel.

It is just a pile of *** and the tactics they are using is bullying and this company has to be put out of business and soon as they are ripping people off.

Hundreds if not thousands of complaints and people are still buying the product, what is wrong with this?

FOREVER FLAWLESS USES BULLYING TACTICS.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Customer Care Review from Barker, Texas

Return policies are in place at all independent location. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#906713 Review #906713 is a subjective opinion of poster.

I left there feeling violated. After the pressure sale--which I did haggle down on, they took me to a free skin analysis and tried to get me to spend more --$1600- on products!!

After 3 hours, the flawless effect wore off!! So disappointed!!

1 comment
Anonymous
#1203976

I always make it a point to avoid these vendors in the middle of the mall but somehow one "caught" me. She had me buy woth $300 of their skin products and promise me a "free" facial in their store in the same mall.the sales rep named guy persuaded me to but.

i was ready to run with half of my face with their expensive cream but he promised to wave the the $300 I bought fr the stall. I contacted their customer service asking for the refund and she said sales reps had no right to waive sold products.SO EVERYTHING WAS LIES AND DECEPTION JUST FOR THEM TO SELL.They claim that I got a facial but i consider it a DEMO and was charged.I could not accept what happened to me..i lost sleep, got constipated, because of the stress and itchy applying their products.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY FOR THEM. SO MY ADVISE IS TO NEVER ENTERTAIN THOSE VENDORS HANDING OUT BEAUTY SACHETS.I KNOW MY PROBLEM REQUIRES SURGERY and i don't have much wrinkles..I WISH I NEVER MET THEM..I WISH SOMETHING/SOMEONE WOULD STOP THEM..THEIR FALSE ADVERTISEMENT, I WISH THEY HAD THE CONCIENCE ...

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Aggressive sales persons

Independent Store location. Ownership team has been updated about the experience. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#906082 Review #906082 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Poor customer service

Three times I've been approached, or should I say attacked, by sales persons of 'Forever Flawless': twice in Phillipsburg, Sint Maarten and once in the Amsterdam airport Schiphol.

On all occasions I was alone and they were with two people...

On all occasions the sales persons mentioned how tired I looked and suggested I don't take well care of my skin. This is intimidating. They don't know my age, nor my skin conditions; they completely overwhelm an unprepared passer-by. This is your chance to WALK ON!

They promised a 1-minute facial, that turned into a 1-minute facial and endless (if I hadn't stopped them) lecture of what my skin deserved (their products, of course).

At the same time, all (!) sales persons smelled of cigarette smoke, and we know how good smoking is for your skin.

In Sint Maarten they pushed a magnifying mirror under my face, making me look down, making lines and wrinkles look worse. This is an aggressive sales technique. Take your cue: WALK ON.

They will demand to know your regular skin care routine, which of course is nobody's business.

They speak about normal prices of $400 although no price lists are available in the shop. Special offers are made of $200 for a cream that contains: water, oil, aloe juice, soybean, green tea and coffee extract.

Major red flags: KEEP WALKING ON AND IGNORE THEIR PROMISES.

Can somebody advise me how to file a legal complaint?

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - High Pressure Sales!

Independent Store location. Ownership team has been updated about the experience. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#905518 Review #905518 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Cons
  • High pressure sales people
  • Abuse
Reason of review
High Pressure Sales

Twice now I have been accosted at the North Star Mall in San Antonio, TX. The first time I just kept walking.....the second time I was not as lucky.

I was not in a hurry and he handed me a small diamond shaped trial packet. Then come the sales tactics: They start with asking what you use on your face. I use Lancome and Elemis. All high quality products.

Without asking if I have a skin allergy - I do - he grabs my hand and applies a orangeish substance. I try to pull my hand back and he holds it firmly. I am starting to get upset and ask for my hand back. By that time he is rubbing this substance into my hand and tells me I am going to love the result.

I was furious. I guess it some sort of a exfoliation gel. I refused to buy it. I will not buy something unless I have been able to research it and see if it causes skin irritations.

I was rescued by my room mate who had come looking for me and the guy let me go. I had forgotten the entire thing until today when I was cleaning out my purse and found the trial packet. I decided to research the product and here I find this website.

I will steer clear of them in the future.

They operate out of a very nice boutique in an upscale mall and I was surprised that they have so many bad reviews.

I will add that he did not have a snowballs chance of separating me from my money!

2 comments
Anonymous
#1203591

These people are very aggressive. You basically have to keep walking quickly, do not allow them to place anything in your hands and never make eye contact with them. Keep going and they will pester the next person.

Anonymous
#1203530

So sorry for your ordeal. These people are illegal Israelis working here to earn money after serving in the Israeli army.

You can google Illegal Israelis working in Malls and stuff will come up. I, too, was accosted when I came out of the Apple store on Long Island in the Walt Whitman Mall. I was carrying my laptop in a shopping bag and walk with a cane b/c I recently had knee replacement. The man came over and asked to HELP and grabbed my hand trying to get me into the store.

I told him, I am getting Mall security and talked in a loud voice that others came to see what was going on.

Report to Mall Security and Simon Properties Inc., the owners of this Mall. Do the same, please.

View more comments (1)
Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Bate & Switch beware !!!

Matter resolved by the Independent resllers at that private location. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#905243 Review #905243 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Return, Exchange or Cancellation Policy

Under alot of pressure I purchased almost $1,000,00 worth of products in the San Antonio Tx mall on 8/15/2016. I am a flight attendant and live in Michigan.

The salesmen were hard to understand, and didn't take no for an answer. The products I came home with did not deliver like the products they used on my face. When I got home on 8/19/2016 I discovered the sales receipts were not in the bags with my products. I got on the website called and was informed I had to take it up with the individual store of purchase.

So I called the # on the free facial coupon and it was a personal cell phone of 1 of the salesmen. He answered hello so I told him I would like my receipts emailed to me . It took along time for him to get my email address correct then never emailed them to me. Returns cannot be made without the original receipt and he now refuses to answer his phone.

I was told the first products I bought would last 1 yr and the second 2 yrs. When I took everything out of the boxes, there is no way. I'll be lucky if the last 6 mos. I have contacted my credit card company because I do not trust this company to return my $ if i return the products.

It is a huge scam and the products do not deliver the results you are told. Beware beware!!

1 comment
Aniela
#1202744

Same thing happened to me at Park Meadows Mall in Lone Tree, CO on 08/09/16. The products did not tighten my skin at all like the ones they applied at the store.

The receipt stated no returns so I am not sure what else to do. Let me know if you find a solution.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Temporary Results - Permanent Bad Feelings

Your visit was to an Independent Store location that simply carries our brand of product. Ownership team has been updated about the experience at their store location - The retail stores that carry our products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#903948 Review #903948 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Pros
  • Sample guy was cute
Cons
  • Pressure to buy more
Reason of review
Return, Exchange or Cancellation Policy
Loss
$300
Preferred solution
That amount is for the time I spent trying to get my refund. That represents the time away from my vacation.

Went in to the hotel gift shop to buy an energy drink. Wound up sitting through facial treatments, seeing pictures of other customers, asked about how much I spend, telling me how great I look, and then telling me that I am getting a ridiculously good price, but I can't tell anyone about the low, low price I'm getting. I bought a couple of things, came back to my room, and started a little Internet research. My receipt said clearly that I could return the items within 7 days for a refund. Went back down to the gift shop at 4 pm, and even though the sales people said they would only be there until 2 pm (pressure to take the next best deal - at hush hush prices), they were still there.

I told them I wanted a refund and they wanted a reason. Told them I don't need a reason. Then I got put through the next wringer of negotiations - their "process" for refund. They had to call their manager, i.e., better sales person who tries to make you keep their stuff.

Then I got told that I'd have to come back tomorrow - NOPE - receipt doesn't say that - give me my refund.

Manager is busy and can't talk to me so I was given a card to call customer service - called and was told that it was 4 pm on a Friday and that person was already gone and would be back in on Monday. NOPE - give me my refund.

We need to talk to her because she has to give us a code. NOPE - give me my refund. You have a credit card machine and I know very well that it is just a different button to issue a credit vs. process a sale.

Oh, now she's available and she wants to talk to you. The pitch: $25,000 worth of retail products for $2,500. I don't need to pay for anything else - because they know I love the products and would tell all my friends so they would gain clients. NOPE - give me my refund.

FINALLY - got my refund on my credit card. Could also be that I took my phone out and was taking pictures of my credit card receipt and a copy of the sales receipt in preparation for contacting my credit card company to dispute the charges because of their refusal to honor their refund policy.

I agree with other reviewers - if they offered these products at a reasonable price to everyone and quit with the high pressure, they wouldn't have so much bad press.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Very expensive and no instruction on product

Independent Multi-line Reseller that carries multiple brands. Matter must be resolved by the ownership team of that establishment. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.

ID
#902942 Review #902942 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Not as described/ advertised

I went to the Kiosk to buy Lioness products and was talked into buying other products they were selling. They were represented to be made by Lioness.

I did not understand how to use the products after I was sent two different vague emails with instructions. So I called Lioness customer service to get further instruction just to find out they were not even their products. It was very high pressure sales situation. I don't know if the product is any good but feel very uneasy because of the way the whole situation was handled.

I cannot find but one positive review on this product line. I want to return for Lioness products.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Diamond Cream Under Eyes Review from Montreal, Quebec

Your visit was to an Independent Store location that simply carries our brand of product. Ownership team has been updated about the experience at their store location - The retail stores that carry our products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#901397 Review #901397 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Poor customer service

Forever Flawless at Rockland.Center in Montreal should teach.to the young guys overthere to wash their hands before to apply any product in women face .The guy that I met smell cigatettes from his hand ,its just groos and yerk .Plus He was pushy about his diamond cream and made him very impolite and rude !

Money doesn' t buy the Class!

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Ditto for La Jolla

Return policies are in place at all independent location. The retail stores that carry pur products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#898192 Review #898192 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Reason of review
Pricing issue

I had the same experience as here recounted so many times. Real scamsters, but very insistent. The price changed ever 5 minutes, and, of course, you will never get this deal again....

Diamonds, now gold in cosmetics? What is the evidence? No one reveals the actual contents-- I asked if there is retin-A in these items and no one knew. In fact, no one knew anything but pushy sales tactics.

I was offered a facial "for free" and when I returned a week later, it was the same salesman who merely applied the same product, then another one, and tried to tell me that actually, I needed the second one, of course many times more expensive. Not even a massage. It was just like in the store chair, only lying down in a tiny dark closet behind the main room.

To get out of the store, I had to purchase a bag full of products. It is true that some puff up your skin, but is it safe over time? The facial peel gel stuck to the tiny hairs on my face and were very difficult to remove. AVOID!

1 comment
Anonymous
#1198987

The sales person didn't tell me about no refund policy till after I bought. Then refused to refund before I even walked out.

He kept saying policy is on the receipt. It's too late by that time.

Forever Flawless's reply to:

Forever Flawless - Hard Pressure sales - similiar to buying a car or timeshare presentation

Your visit was to an Independent Store location that simply carries our brand of product. Pricing is set by the owenrs of the various locales and may vary. Ownership team has been updated about the experience at their store location - The retail stores that carry our products are all privately owned and independently operated so the first course of action is always to contact the ownership team of the location when issues or concerns may arise. Our intention is to ensure that all customers who purchase the Forever Flawless brand of products have a wonderful experience regardless of where the purchase occurs. Customer satisfaction is our number one priority so should you have any questions at all our customer service team may be reached at (470) 545-3577, Monday - Friday 9:30 am - 5:30 PM EST.
ID
#897903 Review #897903 is a subjective opinion of poster.
Pros
  • Products
Cons
  • Price or high pressure sales
Reason of review
High pressure sales
Preferred solution
Let the company propose a solution

BUYER BEWARE OF FOREVER FLAWLESS! I was offered a free facial, so, of course, I took advantage of it. I do think that my face looked better immediately afterwards. It was obvious that there were some ingredients that plumped up my skin because it minimized my forehead wrinkles and the wrinkles/indents that frame my mouth.

After the facial, the hard sale kicked in. I have to say that it was worst than buying a car or going to a timeshare presentation (well maybe not that bad ;)). The pressure was intense and as we got up to leave, he would say wait, wait let me see what I could do, then come in with a lower price. The price started at $4500 and by the time we finished it was done to $1800 with some other products thrown in. The purchase is a final sale and products are non-refundable after leaving the store.

Knowing how much a year's supply of good facial products are, knowing that we need to do what we can on a regular basis to keep our skin looking great, if the sales push wasn't so hard and the price wasn't negotiable and was below $1,000. I probably would have purchased it. I believe they would do much better to have a reasonable price for their products and sell it to everyone for the same price, instead of looking for a sucker.

A few things to note: I am informed on products and what goes into a good skin care regime. He was very surprised at what I knew. For example, he claimed the product would sink down to the bottom layer of skin and worked from there. I had to point out to him that the law for all skin products in the USA was that it could only go down so many layers - so how could they sell a product that went down to the bottom layer? He was shocked that I knew this and tried to talk his way out of it. This was one of many fabrications and/or claims that he made.

I am not going to spend that amount of money on anything - even after trying it, without knowing more about the product. His deal expired if I walked out the door. Why is that? I have psoriasis and I am not about to purchase a product that I can't return if it triggers my psoriasis (he said he would give me a handwritten refund agreement if it activated my psoriasis - ***). I also have never heard that diamonds and gold benefit the skin - it's just a marketing ploy that will satisfy those looking for something fancy and what girl doesn't love diamonds and gold or to be like a Kardashian? I also wanted to know what the active ingredients were - and he did not provide that to me. I didn't even get to see the label of ingredients (how much gold or diamonds were in there - were they the last ingredient on the list (probably).

In summary, if you are approached by an employee of Forever Flawless and don't have thousands to drop on one year of skin care products (only the 3 step mask system), I would steer clear.